Women, men equal, not same

As Salaam Wa Aliakum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu,

The fitnah, the “Pandora's Box”, which has been opened by the sister who led
prayers in the Synod House of the Cathedral of St. John the Divine, will be felt
for a long time around many Muslim communities.

Locally here on Oahu, along with many other challenges that the Ummah has
to deal with, we now have this issue of men and women praying together.

Alhumdulillah, I am very happy to read this article by Sister Michele Ouansafi
an actual participating member of the Muslim Association of Hawaii. In
addition to the advice given in this article, I would advise anyone looking to
raise any issues they may have with the Ummah here, to talk to the Imam and
the leadership first. Your responsibility to this Deen of Islam does not rest
with you and you alone. If Allah has blessed you with a wife or a husband,
children, a position of leadership or even if you’re only a member who
attends Masjid once a week, then you should know that the Dawah you give
represents Islam as a whole.

Every issue of aqeedah, ibaadah or manhaj in which Al-Qu’ran and the
Sunnah has not provided a text for and upon which the Companions never
agreed upon is falsehood, vain, and innovated. Choosing a path other than
those righteous pious predecessors who came before us is a dangerous thing
to do. May Allah grant us increased knowledge of our Deen while we still
have time left here in this Dunya. Ameen.

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As Salaam Wa Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu,

Subhannah Allah we have the opportunity to attend a Masjid unlike a lot of Muslims around the world who are prevented the simply right to make salat. I know this is not the issue here, but it needs to be said so we don’t loose sight of the reason why we attend the Masjid in the first place… ibadah.

CrunkMuslimah, you’re correct in saying that it is not Haram to pray in the same room as a man. The proof of this is found in Sahih Muslim in which Abu Hurayrah (radiallahu anha) narrates that Ar-Rasulullah (sallallahu alayhi wasallam) said: “The best rows for men are those of the front and the worst are those at the back, and the best rows for women are those at the back and the worst are those at the front.” And many other texts could be used as proof that it’s not Haram for men an women to pray in the same room as long as the proper adab (Islamic etiquette) is followed.

I think one of the points in which the Administrator of this forum is trying to get across through all of his posts, is that members of this community (both men and women) were allowed to voice their concerns, desires, likes, dislikes, before and during the renovation project. If there are issues that need to be talked about related to the renovation, men having too much, women not being treated as equal and so on… please don’t feel shy, frightened or embarrassed to talk to the Imam or any of the other leadership of our community.

The anger, bitterness, and hostility, read from some of the comments posted really aren’t necessary. We’re Muslims; our example in handling all of our affairs has already been set for us and using the proper adab will go a long way is solving our problems.

Alhumdulillah we have a Mosque here on Oahu, even with the limited real estate we have and limited amount of funds generated by the community, we still have a place to worship. May Allah continue to grant us this place of worship and insha-Allah give us a bigger and better Mosque to accommodate all who want to attend… Ameen.

Fi Amanillah

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As-Salaamu Alaikum

JazakAllahu Khairun Akhee for eloquently expressing what is in my heart and what I know is in your heart...

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Salam Alla ManiTabaa Alhuda:

First this is not an Issue at all and should never be. Before I tell you why I'd like to start with the following:
Sister Michelle, Thank you very much (JazakAllah Kheiran) for your beautiful article that reflects what we felt when we read the unfortunate and inaccurate article by Mona. I say it was unfortunate because Mona was part of the women committee and failed to do anything for sisters and eventually disappeared. She should come and address us instead of blaming her failures on the men. Also thank you Admn for your reasonable and to the point responses

As for the issue at hand, we women that were present in the general body meeting voted unanimously to have a separate room. MashaAllah it is comfortable, and very nice and much bigger than before. Unfortunately I don't attend as much as I would like to but my heart is always there and when I go I feel much fulfillment.

We should not change the will of the community to satisfy anyone’s agenda. It is like asking the congress to approve Kerry to be the president to accommodate those who chose not to vote. Here is my question: Is having a separate room for us sisters haram or unislamic?? If the answer is no then stop listening to the whispers of Shaitan and stop creating Fitnah that we do not need.

Now for 2 men... you should be ashamed of yourselves for not attending the Mosque because of your weak reasons. You do not attend Fard (obligatory) because you want your wife to do Sunnah... not smart at all and certainly cheered and loved by Shaitan. Further how much did you donate for our comfort during the renovation, I’ll bet nothing because you don’t attend and how much did you donated to our security after 9-11, I’ll be nothing and when was the last time you attended Friday Prayer. If it’s more that 3 times and I’ll bet it is then you should check your Imane and motivation.

STOP finding excuses and have some integrity and courage to speak to the Imam if something legitimate is bothering you and don’t hide behind your computers.
What would be next …send the men home to accommodate the women that want to be men… be real… be a Muslim. Also your ignorance about Islam is very apparent: Since when it is Sunnah for us women to pray in the same room than men? Where is the verse from the Quran or the Hadith from our beloved Prophet that tell you it is Sunnah? We all know that we have the choice but it is not Sunnah and is certainly is a Fard for men.

I love Islam and that is why I reverted 12 years ago. It always made sense to me. It gives us more rights and respect than any other religion. It is Allah that gives us that and not the location where we pray.

Another point is that our present Imam and the leader of our community are the best that we ever had and MUCH MUCH was accomplished in the past couple of years. Both individuals are very accessible and do help everyone, brothers and sister alike and you should be ashamed of blaming them for not reading your minds.

Finally I will tell you now why it s not an issue: because those of us that attend did use the “library “which is part of the main musallah and no one ever stopped us. In fact the leadership often makes announcements for the women to come inside when there is a visiting scholar.
I leave you with this: Is having a women area Haram and needs to change. Again if the answer is No then go about your business and find another issue that will benefit the Muslim Ummah.

May Allah give all of us guidance

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Salaams,

How many women attend the mosque? Fard or not, all Muslim women have a right to attend. You blithely ignore the many women are sound off about the poor environment they avoid with a divided heart.

As for myself, I choose to attend the Schofeild Musallla, when I'm not deployed, of course. What have I contributed? Well, I helped lift the true fitna of oppression from millions of Muslims in Bosnia and Afghanistan... I've spent up to a few thousand bucks over the years in Hawaii feeding people on Eid and so on...But, I suppose if I'm not supporting your opinions, its not enough.

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Aloha our Islamic Friends,

My name is Nancy, a practicing attorney and a politician here in Hawaii. I am not a Muslim and proud to be a Christian. I received an e-mail with a subject line “Superb, Must Read” from a colleague of mine. The e-mail contained the article from Honolulu advertiser written by Mrs. Ouansafi. Mrs. Ouansafi my congratulations on a very well written and eloquent article. It touches not only Muslims but women from other faiths like me. I too have forwarded the article to everyone on my address book and received much appreciation from my friends and family for doing so.

When I visited your site to leave Mrs. Ouansafi a congratulations message, I saw the complete article as originally written, Mrs. Ouansafi You should be a writer very well done…just SUPERB.

What surprised me however, were the comments going back and forth and the accusations exchanged. I also had a chance to read the article from the Star Bulletin by Mrs. Darwich.

Mr. / Mrs. Admn, I would like to congratulate you for posting Mrs. Darwich article although you disagree with. It shows that you are an open minded individual with integrity. Mahalo for your service.

I was especially sad to read the comments about your leadership. For us people of different faith, the only Muslim leadership that we know in Hawaii is that of Mr. Ouansafi. Leadership is really judged in difficult times and Mr. Ouansafi has proven, after the event to 9-11, to Hawaii and USA in general what a tremendous leader he is. Mr. Ouansafi is a pillar in Hawaii and has done a tremendous service to you folks as well as to all the people of Hawaii. He is remarkable and influential leader and you all owe him for putting your Muslim community on the map. It is no surprise that he was chosen as Honolulu Man of the year by Honolulu Magazine and revered by us politicians. It is because of such unfortunate comments that I decided to respond.

Because of my lack of knowledge about Islam and as an attorney, my comment will be about facts as written and will not use any hearsay.

First: Mrs. Darwich stated in her Star Bulletin article “Today there is almost no opportunity for women to interact with the religious leader, the imam”.
The only way to find out the accuracy of her comment vs. the comments of Admn was for me to take a trip to your Mosque on Aleo place in Manoa. I did yesterday. When I arrived around 5 pm, I asked a gentleman that was there for the Imam and he told me that he can go get him. When I ask if he was inside the Mosque he replied that he wasn’t but that he lives next door to the Mosque. I told him that it wasn’t necessary and that I will return later on. He then replied that the Imam is always available everyday at 1pm, 3pm, and anytime after 7pm. I sent my daughter today to your 1pm Friday service and she too asked for your leadership. Both Mr. Ouansafi and your Imam came and talked to her. Further it was done with no effort at all as there is only one door separating both worshipping men and women. It took less than 2 minutes to reach both gentlemen. Mrs. Darwich, in our church we call and set up an appointment and we meet at the convenience of our religious leader. You should be thankful that yours is that much accessible. Therefore what you have said in your article is not true and considered in court of law as defamation of character. If I was your Imam’s attorney, I would advise him to file a law suit against your defamation and will assure you that will win.

Ms. CrunkMuslimah stated in her comments of April 18 2005 that @ 04:28 PM HST

“Has it ever occurred to you that maybe so many Muslim women (like myself) demand to pray in the same rooms as men because of the small space and inadequate rooms that are given to women to pray in? Maybe we wouldn't have such a big problem if so many times men weren’t given bigger rooms, better rooms, etc, etc (and we were).”
I had an opportunity to check out the condition of the women area Vs the men’s. To my surprise it was wonderfully updated and decorated with crystal chandeliers, granite beautifully designed carpet, water fountain and much more and would easily fit 50 women. The men’s area was not completed as yet and that tell me that priority was given to women. Ms. CrunkMuslimah, you are totally wrong and deceitful in your comments. That’s a shame!

Mr. OmarG, in your comments of April 19th you said “Yes, I've kept my opinions to myself for several years now, actually. Its a result of seeing how closedminded people were and I really did not relish the prospect of being shouted down like others had been. But, I have raised similar concerns about the mindset of the community before Ismail came,”
Why is it then, you are defaming the character of your leadership and your Imam? It’s clear to me that you speak out of anger and ignorance. Perhaps you should seek some help as this could have been due to stress caused by the deployment that you’ve referred to in your comments. I know that the military offer such psychiatric help and you should take advantage of it.

Ms. Ouansafi said in her article about Mrs. Darwich “Although intent can only truly be known by the individual and God”
I would like to add from my experience in the legal field, that individual’s intent can be determined. In this case it was indeed very easy. A simple search in Google using Mrs. Darwich name painted a picture for me.
Mrs. Darwich said on Feb 14, 2004 Under Title “Head scarf promotes
spirituality”:
“The hijab has become part of my identity. It has been 20 years that I am wearing it, and I have tried to see myself without it but I could not. It was like being naked.
But what surprises me is that she also said under title: Hijaab Mis- Encounters on April 3rd, 2005: “I have decided to stop wearing the hijaab a little over a year ago. Since then, interesting things have been happening……..Sometimes I feel that the five pillars of Islam in practice are: 1-hijaab is a must; 2-pray; 3-Fasting, 4-Charity and 5-Pilgrimage….along with the declaration of faith….….Sure enough, here she (referring to her friend) comes…without one (Hijab)! We both looked at each other and said, “when…what happened?” So we laughed and shared our stories. We have been avoiding each other for more than six months…for no reason! “
Mrs. Darwich said under title ““Being Led by a Woman can Be a Very Good Thing”- www.muslimwakeup.com on March 12th, 2005 “….I wish I could lead the prayers too! But I doubt I would be allowed in our Hawaii’s only mosque. Can you imagine, a woman leading a Jumua’h Friday prayer, and above all, be given the chance to speak in front of a congregation inside a mosque?....I just imagine myself leading a Friday Khutba and prayer. Wow, I would feel that finally women are starting to get back their spaces at the mosque……..Meanwhile, I want to see the day where a female Muslim lead mosque’s Friday prayers in Hawaii. Hoorah! “
I’d like to end with this: People shy away from Islam because of what Islam teaches as I believe it to be a much superior religion, but because of extremist like the terrorists or the other extremist from the opposite side like Ms. Darwich, Mrs. CrunkMuslima or Mr. OmarG.
Mrs. Ouansafi stated in her article “Those who strive to change Islam should look for a different religion” I tell you Mrs. Ouansafi, we too have no room for such ignorant people and they are not welcome to join our religion. Best they each create one. Besides, we don’t want to see an article blaming men and our church leadership for segregation and unfairness because our beloved Catholic Pope is not a female!
Good luck
Nancy

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Thanks, Nancy. Its always refreshing to get the
perspective of outsdiders looking in. I would invite you
to spend much more time as a Muslim woman; perhaps then
you will understand what it is like to be treated as
unequal, something that is a product of Muslim cultures
and not something from our religion per se. Please know
that we do not defame Ismail, the imam or Hakim, in fact
we like them alot. WE do not appreciate the attitudes
which expects women and men to be seperate. As a lawyer,
you ought to know the ramifications of "Seperate but
Equal" and the whole legal and social history of
segregation in America. Again, how is segregation by
gender different than segregation by race?

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Bismillahi-Rahmani-Raheem
As-Salaamu Alaikum Brothers and Sisters,

I would like to express my sadness about the fitnah that followed the acts of a mislead sister in the mainland. I, myself, have lived in other communities, and I feel so happy that I'm part of this community. Our community is very peaceful, the brothers and sisters are very nice. The problem I see here is that when people stay away from the masjid for a long time, they might feel alienated or ignored. If one listens to Sister Mona very well, one can feel that she cares about our community. However, I admit that her approach to the problems, or the Masjid's shortcomings, was not reasonable because it causes fitnah and it makes our hearts grow further apart. Yet things happen for a reason, and all we can do now is try to correct our mistakes or misunderstandings and open our ears and hearts to each other. Allah created us with two ears and only one mouth but, unfortunately, we are not using them as we should. I would like to welcome my sister Mona to the Masjid. And I tell you sister that we, Alhamdulilah, have a very nice, caring, and open minded Imam. If you have any questions or concerns, please come and talk to him. Our Masjid has changed. We now have more room for women, and I hope that one day I can see it crowded. I bet that the Shaitan is very happy and having fun making us fight over things that do not deserve this fitnah. Please brothers and sisters try every time you think badly about something in Islam to make wudu and pray and ask forgiveness and guidance from Allah. This life is short and it does not deserve any of what’s currently happening to stand between us and our love for Allah and our deen. Islam is the religion of Allah, and whoever dares to put this religion down, history as my witness, is never going to be successful.
May Allah help us all, insha’allah.
Your sister in Islam Samira.

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As-Salaamu Alaikum

Omar, you really should take heed of what Nancy had to say. You are indeed making statements that are proving time and time again to be baseless and are unfortunately trying to enlist support from individuals who are naive, such as CrunkMuslimah, who is only a teenager from the East Coast.

I do hope you accept my invitation to my home so we can discuss your concerns in person. I am stating my invitation here publicly as I have not heard from you yet. It would be sad to say that you have allowed this to become a seperation between us. I have not closed my home or heart to you, nor has the Masjid closed its doors to you or your wife or any Muslim/Muslimah for that matter.

Ma Salaama

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..and you forget to mention others such as Sahqu and Yasmeenah, and Warren, etc who aren't happy with things as they are; them, you simply dismiss as you dismissed us. Interesting how you welcome non-Muslims' comments which support you. Now, I understand your earlier comments about why you wanted to keep it private, since politicians and the public might begin to see despite the PR spin, not all the Muslims in Hawaii are satisfied with the attitudes here...very interesting indeed.

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As-Salaamu Alaikum,

I think the point that many of the dissenters have is that, although it is fine to have a seperate room for the women, are women allowed in the main room. Ie, is there a choice? If there is a choice for women who may want to pray in the main room, than I applaud progress, if not, then I would say the current policy is unfair. Only my humble opinion.

Regards,

-Shaqeel

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As-Salaamu Alaikum

I have already spoken to the Imam about this issue and he is surprised that it is an issue at all since the sunnah of Rasulullah SAW has already clearly defined that the women can pray behind the men. However, I am not sure if you attend our masjid or you are somewhere else, but if you do get a chance to be present for Friday prayer, there is just no room behind the men available. For other Salaat, I have historically have found women, like our beloved Sister Raoofa who has prayed behind the men, especially for Fajr prayer.

It is really not a question about fair/unfair since the standards for arriving at that decision may not take into consideration Islamic principles. Therefore, it is more of a question whether or not it is Islamic/Un-Islamic.

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All comments are welcome. That is why they are posted on the site. If I did not want any comments posted, or I wanted to be selective, I could simply disable comments or delete the ones I do not like, or even ban those I didn't like. However, I have never taken such action on this site except for the Porn SPAMMERS who spammed the comments with crude statements. That is the right time to use the power. Not when someone is posting opinions that differ from yours.

You seem to feel that welcome means that I MUST agree. No, I have no compulsion to agree with anyone. I am only compelled to hear someone out.

Perhaps that is why you feel the leadership doesn't listen? Because they disagree with you? I am surprised you think that way. No one will listen to you 100% of the time. That doesn't mean you stop saying what is right. If you feel you are right, then you should speak up. Again, my only issue is that you did not speak up. You simply blasted the community in a newspaper article one that Nancy has kindly pointed out to you provides suitable grounds for a law suit. That should be a wake-up call that freedom doesn't mean you can act irresponsibly.

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Aloha, my name is Hokulani M. and I am not a muslim (yet); however, I do frequent this website because I have been interested in learning about Islam. I am a full-time Sales Manager in the travel industry here in Hawaii, and I'm also married and the mother of two children. I was raised Catholic and for most of my life I have considered myself a Christian (but a non-Catholic).

I thought sharing my thoughts would perhaps allow you to see a different perspective from someone who is a non-muslim and who is exploring the religion of Islam.

First of all, I'd like to give my sincere compliments to the writer, Michele Ouansafi, who I feel completely captured the essence on what it means to be a woman of God ("You go, girl!"). Her article was very inspiring and she gave very persuasive reasoning in her description of our roles as women (in the eyes of God) and why it's ideal that men and women pray in separate rooms. Let me share further thoughts on this topic of women praying together in a separate room from men. The whole physical process and demeanor of how Muslims pray is very different from other religions. For example, in most Christian churches, prayer is conducted either standing or seated, and in the Catholic church there is kneeling at times during the mass.
Therefore, the motions or actions during prayer are not as physical, or should I say "demonstrative" or as humbling (or compromising) as it is in the Muslim religion. I admire the way Muslims pray. I believe way back before modern times that is the way most people who wanted to truly worship God used to pray (to humble themselves and show the utmost respect and honor to God). If I were to be a newcomer to the Muslim faith, I would feel a bit intimidated or awkward in the beginning and I think I would much prefer praying alongside other women apart from the men. I agree with Mrs. Ouansafi that it would make me feel more comfortable and much more able to focus my thoughts and my heart on God without feeling self conscious.

Also to further illustrate my point, this is not meant to be boastful in any way, but I am considered to be a fairly attractive local woman, so I do often receive the attention of men when I'm out in public places. I'll admit it can be flattering but during certain times I would prefer not to deal with it. One of my pet peeves is that I have never had membership at a co-ed fitness club because I don't like the idea of men "checking me out" while I'm working out (exercising). You may ask, what has that got to do with prayer? Well, it's similar ----except when I'm seeking God in prayer---it's even more important to me to feel that I can go to a holy place between me and God and not have to feel self-conscious about men "checking me out". By the way, it works both ways----women can also become distracted during prayer if they see an attractive man. Just visit any Christian church and you will see evidence of this!

The other topic that the writer touched on was how women and men are equal in the eyes of God but not identical or the same. More significantly, how we were created by God to serve in very important roles but very different roles. I find it so amazing that God, being the superior omnipotent being that He is, knew in His infinite wisdom that it was necessary to create us differently to achieve a certain "order in the universe", otherwise, there would be utter chaos! I agree with Mrs. Ouansafi that God has given us as women certain gifts that are unique and different from men and we should be thankful and celebrate those differences. It doesn't make us a lesser being. In some ways, we are the much stronger of the two. I believe these gifts such as the gift of nurturing others is due to the fact that God created us this way because we give birth to children and as the writer mentioned, we are the "heart and soul of the family". I mentioned that I am a working mom and in fact, I do assume a leadership role in my profession. That doesn't mean I will assume this role trying to lead as a man would lead. I utilize the gifts and talents that God has given me and I apply these feminine traits in my role at work and I love being a woman! When I go home after a day's work, I assume the role of wife and mother, knowing and loving the fact that there can only be one "captain of the ship" and thankful that my husband assumes that role. It doesn't mean he is superior to me, he simply assumes a different role as husband and father. He also consults with his "firstmate" on every important family matter because he knows this is the best way to achieve harmony!

I do feel that there are many gifted and talented women leaders, especially in the area of business, and that God does give us this calling when it can bring forth His purposes. If I remember correctly, the wife of Prophet Muhammed (peace and blessings be upon Him) was a very successful business woman (so one would assume she was in a leadership role). However, spiritual matters are a different arena and I will refrain from commenting on whether or not women should lead prayer as I am not knowledgeable (in Islam) to do so.
Mahalo for allowing me to share my perspective. May God's Blessings and peace be with you all.

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